1 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:10,039 on this episode of skeptic o is 2 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:12,850 Christianity worth saving that isn't 3 00:00:17,150 --> 00:00:14,650 even a question that's on the table that 4 00:00:19,439 --> 00:00:17,160 of course Christianity is this 5 00:00:21,510 --> 00:00:19,449 institution and it's so much a part of 6 00:00:24,420 --> 00:00:21,520 our culture and it's so intertwined with 7 00:00:26,250 --> 00:00:24,430 who we are it never gets asked you know 8 00:00:29,460 --> 00:00:26,260 is this something that we really have to 9 00:00:30,870 --> 00:00:29,470 preserve and protect your landing on 10 00:00:33,119 --> 00:00:30,880 something which I guess at a very 11 00:00:34,860 --> 00:00:33,129 personal level both Rupert and myself 12 00:00:37,490 --> 00:00:34,870 are Anglicans you know we go to church 13 00:00:40,559 --> 00:00:37,500 of england on a sunday we greatly value 14 00:00:42,779 --> 00:00:40,569 not just the social aspect of that the 15 00:00:44,309 --> 00:00:42,789 way that parish churches and bring 16 00:00:45,709 --> 00:00:44,319 people together in a community that 17 00:00:48,540 --> 00:00:45,719 otherwise wouldn't be brought together 18 00:00:50,279 --> 00:00:48,550 but my answer to that is certainly not 19 00:00:52,829 --> 00:00:50,289 for its own sake and you know i think 20 00:00:55,049 --> 00:00:52,839 that you try and protect Christianity on 21 00:00:58,049 --> 00:00:55,059 the basis of its historical importance 22 00:01:01,229 --> 00:00:58,059 is one sure way of increasing its 23 00:01:12,510 --> 00:01:01,239 chances of actually dying stay with us 24 00:01:16,420 --> 00:01:14,709 welcome to skeptic oh where we explore 25 00:01:18,910 --> 00:01:16,430 controversial science with leading 26 00:01:21,130 --> 00:01:18,920 researchers thinkers and their critics 27 00:01:23,710 --> 00:01:21,140 i'm your host Alex a garrison on this 28 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:23,720 episode of skeptical we talked with Mark 29 00:01:28,749 --> 00:01:26,210 Vernon was a fabulous writer of many 30 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:28,759 books and abroad thinker about a number 31 00:01:33,340 --> 00:01:30,530 of topics that we care about here on 32 00:01:36,249 --> 00:01:33,350 skeptic oh he's also the host of the 33 00:01:39,460 --> 00:01:36,259 science set free podcast that he does 34 00:01:41,169 --> 00:01:39,470 with Rupert sheldrick and it is a series 35 00:01:43,870 --> 00:01:41,179 of very interesting conversations they 36 00:01:46,149 --> 00:01:43,880 have about topics related to his book 37 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:46,159 science set free and in particular about 38 00:01:52,719 --> 00:01:49,250 religion spirituality and the 39 00:01:54,339 --> 00:01:52,729 intersection it has with science so I 40 00:01:57,070 --> 00:01:54,349 thought this was a great opportunity to 41 00:01:59,410 --> 00:01:57,080 have mark on the show and talk about the 42 00:02:01,389 --> 00:01:59,420 series of dialogues he's had along with 43 00:02:03,429 --> 00:02:01,399 the books that he's written I'm really 44 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:03,439 glad that we did because it allowed me 45 00:02:09,430 --> 00:02:06,530 to talk about a topic that has been on 46 00:02:11,229 --> 00:02:09,440 my mind ever since I published this 47 00:02:14,470 --> 00:02:11,239 series of interviews that i did with 48 00:02:16,300 --> 00:02:14,480 notable atheists like michael shermer 49 00:02:18,610 --> 00:02:16,310 and Lawrence Krauss that you can find in 50 00:02:20,020 --> 00:02:18,620 the back episodes and in the process of 51 00:02:23,050 --> 00:02:20,030 doing that I want to let you know that I 52 00:02:25,539 --> 00:02:23,060 also reached out to with the help of a 53 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:25,549 couple of skeptical forum members to 54 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:30,530 well over a dozen atheist podcasts and I 55 00:02:33,460 --> 00:02:31,850 want to run this past you because I 56 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:33,470 reach out to all these people i said 57 00:02:36,940 --> 00:02:35,450 look let me come on your show will 58 00:02:39,789 --> 00:02:36,950 debate this stuff we'll talk about this 59 00:02:41,379 --> 00:02:39,799 stuff no okay come on skeptical will 60 00:02:43,660 --> 00:02:41,389 debate this stuff we'll talk about this 61 00:02:45,910 --> 00:02:43,670 stuff that is we'll talk about how a 62 00:02:48,129 --> 00:02:45,920 theism fails as a philosophy in light of 63 00:02:50,559 --> 00:02:48,139 consciousness science and fails in terms 64 00:02:52,150 --> 00:02:50,569 of the scientific tenants that hold it 65 00:02:54,610 --> 00:02:52,160 up because of the science of 66 00:02:56,770 --> 00:02:54,620 consciousness and not surprisingly at 67 00:03:00,099 --> 00:02:56,780 least not surprisingly to me but may be 68 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:00,109 surprising to you none of these guys 69 00:03:05,500 --> 00:03:02,810 would come on and talk this is what i 70 00:03:08,770 --> 00:03:05,510 found over and over again atheists don't 71 00:03:13,059 --> 00:03:08,780 debate this stuff because their goal is 72 00:03:15,490 --> 00:03:13,069 really just to be left alone and comfort 73 00:03:18,849 --> 00:03:15,500 each other in their atheistic journey 74 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:18,859 which which I understand to a certain 75 00:03:24,249 --> 00:03:21,530 extent and I think I understand it more 76 00:03:24,730 --> 00:03:24,259 after getting to know these atheists a 77 00:03:27,970 --> 00:03:24,740 little bit 78 00:03:31,060 --> 00:03:27,980 one thing that I did come away from that 79 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:31,070 is that the feeling they express of 80 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:33,170 being victimized by the shadow of 81 00:03:38,620 --> 00:03:36,530 religiosity that still exists strongly 82 00:03:41,110 --> 00:03:38,630 in our culture you know that feeling 83 00:03:44,710 --> 00:03:41,120 they have his kind of warranted in some 84 00:03:47,170 --> 00:03:44,720 ways so I think there are some points to 85 00:03:49,210 --> 00:03:47,180 the Atheist position and I understand 86 00:03:50,740 --> 00:03:49,220 why they kind of want to be left alone 87 00:03:52,330 --> 00:03:50,750 but I think if you're going to put 88 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:52,340 yourself out there as a critical thinker 89 00:03:57,280 --> 00:03:55,610 then you ought to be able to take some 90 00:04:00,490 --> 00:03:57,290 criticism and you ought to be able to 91 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:00,500 debate things in an open and honest way 92 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:03,290 but all this really stands in contrast 93 00:04:08,590 --> 00:04:06,290 to the conversation that you're about to 94 00:04:12,250 --> 00:04:08,600 here with me and Mark Vernon because in 95 00:04:15,340 --> 00:04:12,260 this conversation I think I took some of 96 00:04:18,550 --> 00:04:15,350 the atheists points and offered those up 97 00:04:20,949 --> 00:04:18,560 to mark who is a Christian and who talks 98 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:20,959 about his Christian faith with dr. 99 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:23,090 shelter who is also a Christian now we 100 00:04:28,090 --> 00:04:25,250 should know that mark is one of the most 101 00:04:30,570 --> 00:04:28,100 open-minded and progressive Christians I 102 00:04:33,910 --> 00:04:30,580 think you'll run across and I really 103 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:33,920 appreciate where he's coming from if 104 00:04:39,670 --> 00:04:37,130 there is a future for Christianity which 105 00:04:41,860 --> 00:04:39,680 is the question posed by this show then 106 00:04:44,950 --> 00:04:41,870 I really think it's thinkers like Mark 107 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:44,960 who are going to lead Christians to that 108 00:04:50,650 --> 00:04:47,570 next vantage point so these are some of 109 00:04:52,840 --> 00:04:50,660 the topics I talked to mark about it's a 110 00:04:55,660 --> 00:04:52,850 wide-ranging discussion from someone who 111 00:04:58,060 --> 00:04:55,670 I really admire and respect for his work 112 00:05:00,220 --> 00:04:58,070 and his writings on this it was a great 113 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:00,230 dialogue and I'm super happy to be able 114 00:05:06,730 --> 00:05:02,210 to share it with you here here's my 115 00:05:08,500 --> 00:05:06,740 conversation with Mark Vernon today we 116 00:05:10,750 --> 00:05:08,510 welcome mark Vernon to skeptic Oh 117 00:05:13,090 --> 00:05:10,760 markers an accomplished writer having 118 00:05:15,220 --> 00:05:13,100 authored many many articles for many of 119 00:05:17,230 --> 00:05:15,230 the top publications in the UK and 120 00:05:19,420 --> 00:05:17,240 elsewhere he's also authored several 121 00:05:22,180 --> 00:05:19,430 wonderful books on life friendship 122 00:05:25,570 --> 00:05:22,190 spirituality and philosophy for which 123 00:05:28,420 --> 00:05:25,580 he's earned a PhD and which he reminds 124 00:05:30,460 --> 00:05:28,430 us in his book plato's podcast that's 125 00:05:33,219 --> 00:05:30,470 the title of the book he reminds us that 126 00:05:36,850 --> 00:05:33,229 the definition is of philosophy that is 127 00:05:38,410 --> 00:05:36,860 is the love of wisdom I really 128 00:05:41,290 --> 00:05:38,420 appreciated that take that 129 00:05:43,990 --> 00:05:41,300 stephen hawking right mark is a frequent 130 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:44,000 guest on BBC Radio he's a former priest 131 00:05:49,810 --> 00:05:46,370 within the church of england and is now 132 00:05:52,180 --> 00:05:49,820 a practicing psychotherapist in london 133 00:05:53,950 --> 00:05:52,190 mark it's great to have you on skeptic 134 00:05:56,710 --> 00:05:53,960 oh thanks so much for joining me thank 135 00:05:58,420 --> 00:05:56,720 you very much for asking me so you know 136 00:06:02,140 --> 00:05:58,430 in that introduction one of the things I 137 00:06:04,840 --> 00:06:02,150 left off is this wonderful series of 138 00:06:07,030 --> 00:06:04,850 dialogues you've done with Rupert 139 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:07,040 Sheldrake who is well known to people 140 00:06:10,540 --> 00:06:08,570 who listen to this show and who I 141 00:06:13,270 --> 00:06:10,550 consider one of the most brilliant 142 00:06:15,970 --> 00:06:13,280 thinkers of our time and you've really 143 00:06:18,850 --> 00:06:15,980 managed to capture in these dialogues 144 00:06:21,940 --> 00:06:18,860 with him a very conversational tone in 145 00:06:25,660 --> 00:06:21,950 which you guys explore many topics 146 00:06:27,820 --> 00:06:25,670 around science and spirituality and what 147 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:27,830 I really appreciate is you really tackle 148 00:06:33,010 --> 00:06:30,410 some of the tough issues some of the 149 00:06:36,130 --> 00:06:33,020 cultural issues of science and religion 150 00:06:37,830 --> 00:06:36,140 not just this foo foo spirituality you 151 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:37,840 really get down and dirty with 152 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:40,130 Christianity with the implications for 153 00:06:43,900 --> 00:06:42,170 religion atheism and you really try and 154 00:06:45,970 --> 00:06:43,910 tease all that apart and in a very 155 00:06:48,460 --> 00:06:45,980 intelligent and thought-provoking and 156 00:06:51,250 --> 00:06:48,470 very personal way to your very open 157 00:06:53,830 --> 00:06:51,260 about talking about your experiences so 158 00:06:55,540 --> 00:06:53,840 I only hope in this little dialogue 159 00:06:57,850 --> 00:06:55,550 today we can kind of capture some of 160 00:06:59,410 --> 00:06:57,860 that and share with people what you guys 161 00:07:02,380 --> 00:06:59,420 are doing there so that they'll check 162 00:07:04,900 --> 00:07:02,390 that out but also so we can maybe extend 163 00:07:08,410 --> 00:07:04,910 that conversation even a little bit 164 00:07:12,430 --> 00:07:08,420 further yeah well I'm very glad you like 165 00:07:14,230 --> 00:07:12,440 them I mean it's not just Rupert's ideas 166 00:07:15,700 --> 00:07:14,240 that I find so engaging but there's 167 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:15,710 something about his attitudes that I 168 00:07:21,130 --> 00:07:18,170 find deeply attractive to I find him a 169 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:21,140 very open and undefended as well as you 170 00:07:26,890 --> 00:07:24,530 know well read and engaged kind of 171 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:26,900 person and so it's been really good for 172 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:28,730 me to have these conversations with him 173 00:07:33,010 --> 00:07:30,530 because I feel he draws you know 174 00:07:34,930 --> 00:07:33,020 something out of me and by engaging with 175 00:07:38,500 --> 00:07:34,940 him too well I really like other 176 00:07:40,870 --> 00:07:38,510 dialogues have developed and early on it 177 00:07:43,060 --> 00:07:40,880 was more of an interview format and now 178 00:07:46,150 --> 00:07:43,070 if someone Tunes in and listens they 179 00:07:48,490 --> 00:07:46,160 really here to individuals who are 180 00:07:49,830 --> 00:07:48,500 bringing kind of their own experience 181 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:49,840 and their own challenge 182 00:07:54,540 --> 00:07:52,570 with trying to sort this stuff out to 183 00:07:57,210 --> 00:07:54,550 the table which is really refreshing so 184 00:08:00,240 --> 00:07:57,220 that tell folks a little bit about more 185 00:08:02,210 --> 00:08:00,250 about your background mark and what you 186 00:08:05,430 --> 00:08:02,220 think you're bringing to those dialogues 187 00:08:08,219 --> 00:08:05,440 well I think I'm part of it actually is 188 00:08:10,610 --> 00:08:08,229 a kind of freedom to think and the kind 189 00:08:13,830 --> 00:08:10,620 of freedom to explore ideas without 190 00:08:16,020 --> 00:08:13,840 feeling this sort of vague sense that 191 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:16,030 ideas are policed certainly in the 192 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:18,010 science and religion debate you know I I 193 00:08:22,050 --> 00:08:19,210 don't know whether you've had this sense 194 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:22,060 but and I've often felt certainly in my 195 00:08:26,129 --> 00:08:23,410 past and I think this is part of my own 196 00:08:28,260 --> 00:08:26,139 journey is that as it were some thoughts 197 00:08:31,110 --> 00:08:28,270 you kind of keeps yourself and you don't 198 00:08:32,909 --> 00:08:31,120 as a word share them with others and try 199 00:08:34,829 --> 00:08:32,919 and explore them in an open kind of way 200 00:08:36,810 --> 00:08:34,839 critical and discerning and but 201 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:36,820 nonetheless open kind of way because 202 00:08:43,709 --> 00:08:38,890 they're almost unthinkable and in fact 203 00:08:46,079 --> 00:08:43,719 and i know that pod the reason why i got 204 00:08:47,970 --> 00:08:46,089 onto this with Rupert was that I had the 205 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:47,980 experience of wanting to talk about some 206 00:08:53,130 --> 00:08:50,890 of Rupert's ideas at academic 207 00:08:54,630 --> 00:08:53,140 conferences and which I attended in my 208 00:08:56,910 --> 00:08:54,640 journalistic guys rather than as an 209 00:08:58,710 --> 00:08:56,920 academic and people actually said to me 210 00:09:01,500 --> 00:08:58,720 on occasion all you know don't mention 211 00:09:03,570 --> 00:09:01,510 trucoat Sheldrake's ideas and because 212 00:09:04,890 --> 00:09:03,580 you will never be taken seriously or you 213 00:09:07,470 --> 00:09:04,900 know it won't do your career any good 214 00:09:09,930 --> 00:09:07,480 and now that's not to say Rupert's ideas 215 00:09:12,660 --> 00:09:09,940 or all correct of course not and but 216 00:09:14,820 --> 00:09:12,670 there's something very wrong I think in 217 00:09:16,769 --> 00:09:14,830 a kind of culture where certain names 218 00:09:21,090 --> 00:09:16,779 and being associated with certain names 219 00:09:23,310 --> 00:09:21,100 is itself damaging per se and it was a 220 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:23,320 real wake-up call for me to think I 221 00:09:28,019 --> 00:09:24,610 don't want to live like that you know I 222 00:09:30,810 --> 00:09:28,029 want to be a free thinker I'm not in the 223 00:09:33,060 --> 00:09:30,820 way it's often taken to be now we did so 224 00:09:34,470 --> 00:09:33,070 thoughts are kind of off limits and but 225 00:09:36,630 --> 00:09:34,480 that all things can be explored 226 00:09:38,610 --> 00:09:36,640 critically and discerning Lee I'm not 227 00:09:40,380 --> 00:09:38,620 just anything goes you know to try and 228 00:09:42,630 --> 00:09:40,390 be sharp and penetrating about these 229 00:09:44,190 --> 00:09:42,640 things and talking with Rupert I find 230 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:44,200 he's one of these you know guys who is 231 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:46,450 very sharp and penetrating about his 232 00:09:51,030 --> 00:09:48,490 ideas and other people's ideas so it's 233 00:09:53,490 --> 00:09:51,040 been great to do it and hopefully in the 234 00:09:54,769 --> 00:09:53,500 conversations you know we encourage 235 00:09:56,820 --> 00:09:54,779 other people in there listening to 236 00:09:58,949 --> 00:09:56,830 explore their own ideas and then maybe 237 00:10:02,220 --> 00:09:58,959 have conversations too and that's been 238 00:10:03,510 --> 00:10:02,230 very much part of the motivation I think 239 00:10:06,300 --> 00:10:03,520 that comes through and 240 00:10:08,340 --> 00:10:06,310 I think it also comes through the the 241 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:08,350 background that you're bringing and the 242 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:10,450 background that Rupert spring because I 243 00:10:13,470 --> 00:10:11,650 think in the spirit of what you're 244 00:10:15,150 --> 00:10:13,480 talking about their mark I think you 245 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:15,160 guys go place in the dialogue 246 00:10:21,780 --> 00:10:17,650 particularly with regard to Christianity 247 00:10:23,340 --> 00:10:21,790 and atheism and science or I should 248 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:23,350 really say the intersection of those but 249 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:25,330 Christianity and atheism you go places 250 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:27,970 like you say that very few people are 251 00:10:35,070 --> 00:10:31,930 willing to talk about openly in the way 252 00:10:36,780 --> 00:10:35,080 that you do and I've teed up some 253 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:36,790 questions and I've shared those with you 254 00:10:42,990 --> 00:10:39,250 some topics if you will that I was 255 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:43,000 hoping we could engage in discussing in 256 00:10:47,430 --> 00:10:45,130 that same kind of spirit that you do 257 00:10:50,460 --> 00:10:47,440 because I think there's another level 258 00:10:52,290 --> 00:10:50,470 even beyond these discussions and also 259 00:10:54,150 --> 00:10:52,300 in putting up together also notice that 260 00:10:57,330 --> 00:10:54,160 there's you know there's this kind of 261 00:11:00,390 --> 00:10:57,340 neat cultural difference between the 262 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:00,400 United States and the people from 263 00:11:05,430 --> 00:11:03,250 Britain in the UK that also doesn't get 264 00:11:08,370 --> 00:11:05,440 played out as much you know it's like oh 265 00:11:10,560 --> 00:11:08,380 you know people in Europe and and the UK 266 00:11:12,180 --> 00:11:10,570 are much more atheists and people over 267 00:11:14,100 --> 00:11:12,190 here are much more religious you know 268 00:11:16,530 --> 00:11:14,110 it's like well okay but what does that 269 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:16,540 really mean what is this emerging 270 00:11:21,540 --> 00:11:19,090 spirituality mean what a secular thought 271 00:11:22,890 --> 00:11:21,550 mean what is a free-thinking mean you 272 00:11:24,810 --> 00:11:22,900 know all that stuff so I think there's 273 00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:24,820 some of that at play to that I was 274 00:11:29,310 --> 00:11:27,970 hoping we could maybe touch on yeah well 275 00:11:30,930 --> 00:11:29,320 i think that the situation in this 276 00:11:33,090 --> 00:11:30,940 country is heavily debated you know 277 00:11:34,680 --> 00:11:33,100 sociologists way in and come up with 278 00:11:36,180 --> 00:11:34,690 various entities about the number people 279 00:11:37,110 --> 00:11:36,190 that believe in gold or don't or the 280 00:11:39,540 --> 00:11:37,120 number of people that believe in life 281 00:11:42,390 --> 00:11:39,550 after death or don't for me they never 282 00:11:44,580 --> 00:11:42,400 quite settle this you it just becomes a 283 00:11:48,300 --> 00:11:44,590 bit of a sixth-form debate you know one 284 00:11:50,430 --> 00:11:48,310 side trying to take out the other but I 285 00:11:53,310 --> 00:11:50,440 think and what definitely is the case is 286 00:11:56,730 --> 00:11:53,320 that whilst what you might call and the 287 00:11:59,100 --> 00:11:56,740 spiritual sense hasn't died in the UK 288 00:12:01,650 --> 00:11:59,110 and maybe in general in northwestern 289 00:12:04,740 --> 00:12:01,660 Europe this that you know the sense that 290 00:12:06,630 --> 00:12:04,750 the material level of reality is not the 291 00:12:09,170 --> 00:12:06,640 only level of reality or in a way not 292 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:09,180 even the most important level of reality 293 00:12:13,710 --> 00:12:12,490 nonetheless certainly in Britain people 294 00:12:16,680 --> 00:12:13,720 have stopped going to the Church of 295 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:16,690 England and more broadly to church 296 00:12:20,970 --> 00:12:18,970 a place to explore that that 297 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:20,980 Christianity has come to be perceived as 298 00:12:26,100 --> 00:12:23,410 kind of tight and constraining limiting 299 00:12:28,110 --> 00:12:26,110 or controlling in some way and and 300 00:12:29,970 --> 00:12:28,120 that's I think a lot to do with the 301 00:12:33,060 --> 00:12:29,980 particularity zuv British culture and 302 00:12:34,950 --> 00:12:33,070 British history mm-hmm well maybe that 303 00:12:38,300 --> 00:12:34,960 leads into the first question that I 304 00:12:40,710 --> 00:12:38,310 would throw on the table and that is is 305 00:12:43,770 --> 00:12:40,720 Christianity worth saving worth 306 00:12:45,630 --> 00:12:43,780 preserving and protecting and I think 307 00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:45,640 you know in the dialogues that I've 308 00:12:50,340 --> 00:12:48,130 heard there's there's two parts of that 309 00:12:52,560 --> 00:12:50,350 that you guys kind of tear apart one is 310 00:12:55,170 --> 00:12:52,570 I have to say there's this implied 311 00:12:56,700 --> 00:12:55,180 assumption that I sometimes hear but I 312 00:12:58,110 --> 00:12:56,710 definitely hear it over here with many 313 00:12:59,520 --> 00:12:58,120 of the people i talk to but also was 314 00:13:01,440 --> 00:12:59,530 kind of surprised to hear it in your 315 00:13:03,470 --> 00:13:01,450 dialogue that that isn't even a question 316 00:13:06,570 --> 00:13:03,480 that's on the table that of course 317 00:13:08,250 --> 00:13:06,580 Christianity is this institution and 318 00:13:10,890 --> 00:13:08,260 it's so much a part of our culture and 319 00:13:13,770 --> 00:13:10,900 it's so intertwined with who we are that 320 00:13:15,210 --> 00:13:13,780 it never gets asked you know is this 321 00:13:17,970 --> 00:13:15,220 something that we really have to 322 00:13:21,660 --> 00:13:17,980 preserve and protect and I know you're 323 00:13:24,090 --> 00:13:21,670 well versed in Buddhist tradition and in 324 00:13:27,300 --> 00:13:24,100 Buddhist practice too and I often think 325 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:27,310 of the often repeated story of the 326 00:13:31,350 --> 00:13:29,050 carrying the raft to the river you know 327 00:13:33,570 --> 00:13:31,360 and that's what we do we carry that raft 328 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:33,580 to the river but then we're instructed 329 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:35,770 that once we use the RAF to get over the 330 00:13:39,150 --> 00:13:38,050 river we can leave the raft behind we 331 00:13:42,210 --> 00:13:39,160 don't have to pull it all the water and 332 00:13:44,130 --> 00:13:42,220 carry it with us and I guess that popped 333 00:13:47,670 --> 00:13:44,140 to mind when I thought of this question 334 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:47,680 you know that as an institution do we 335 00:13:52,820 --> 00:13:50,170 really need to prop this up and preserve 336 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:52,830 it and protect it and kind of 337 00:13:58,530 --> 00:13:55,450 exaggerated I think its importance in 338 00:14:00,630 --> 00:13:58,540 our culture going forward certainly from 339 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:00,640 a historical basis we can say how 340 00:14:05,930 --> 00:14:02,650 important it is but do we really have to 341 00:14:08,430 --> 00:14:05,940 drag it along you're you know you're 342 00:14:10,530 --> 00:14:08,440 landing on something which I guess at a 343 00:14:12,420 --> 00:14:10,540 very personal level both Rupert and 344 00:14:15,420 --> 00:14:12,430 myself are Anglican you know we go to 345 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:15,430 church of england on a sunday and other 346 00:14:20,670 --> 00:14:18,370 times as well we greatly value not just 347 00:14:22,980 --> 00:14:20,680 the social aspect of that the way that 348 00:14:24,660 --> 00:14:22,990 parish churches and bring people 349 00:14:27,270 --> 00:14:24,670 together in a community that otherwise 350 00:14:29,430 --> 00:14:27,280 wouldn't be brought together partly for 351 00:14:30,269 --> 00:14:29,440 the buildings you know the beautiful 352 00:14:32,189 --> 00:14:30,279 buildings both 353 00:14:35,340 --> 00:14:32,199 parish churches and cathedrals part of 354 00:14:37,910 --> 00:14:35,350 the beautiful music choral evensong is 355 00:14:40,259 --> 00:14:37,920 one of the great inventions of 356 00:14:43,379 --> 00:14:40,269 Anglicanism and it's definitely a 357 00:14:45,869 --> 00:14:43,389 spiritual occasion and so there's all 358 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:45,879 those sort of personal commitments I 359 00:14:49,860 --> 00:14:47,410 guess that we find value in so that's 360 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:49,870 part of the reason why we don't as a 361 00:14:53,100 --> 00:14:51,610 were asked the more basic question which 362 00:14:55,679 --> 00:14:53,110 I think you're asking and it's 363 00:14:57,629 --> 00:14:55,689 Christianity worth saving and but my 364 00:14:59,460 --> 00:14:57,639 answer to that is certainly not for its 365 00:15:02,129 --> 00:14:59,470 own sake and you know I think that you 366 00:15:04,079 --> 00:15:02,139 try and protect Christianity on the 367 00:15:07,259 --> 00:15:04,089 basis of its historical importance is 368 00:15:09,809 --> 00:15:07,269 one sure way of increasing its chances 369 00:15:12,650 --> 00:15:09,819 of actually dying and because unless 370 00:15:15,650 --> 00:15:12,660 religions you know can still transmit 371 00:15:18,569 --> 00:15:15,660 something that's alive and present now 372 00:15:21,150 --> 00:15:18,579 that's a leading to as Jesus put it life 373 00:15:23,759 --> 00:15:21,160 in all its fullness and then you know 374 00:15:25,259 --> 00:15:23,769 you can't keep them alive and trying to 375 00:15:27,869 --> 00:15:25,269 keep them alive will only hasten their 376 00:15:29,939 --> 00:15:27,879 deaf and but I think that for all the 377 00:15:32,970 --> 00:15:29,949 problems of the institutional church 378 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:32,980 which are obvious and many and I have no 379 00:15:38,220 --> 00:15:35,730 interest in defending them whatsoever I 380 00:15:40,650 --> 00:15:38,230 still feel that there's something worth 381 00:15:42,780 --> 00:15:40,660 I'm trying to keep alive through the 382 00:15:44,970 --> 00:15:42,790 tradition for me it's much more 383 00:15:47,610 --> 00:15:44,980 associated with and the contemplative 384 00:15:50,129 --> 00:15:47,620 tradition in Christianity which in the 385 00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:50,139 West has always struggled against the 386 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:51,850 more institutional Church which is 387 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:53,050 always in the West always being more 388 00:15:58,319 --> 00:15:54,850 closely aligned to politics on the state 389 00:15:59,999 --> 00:15:58,329 and that say in eastern Christianity but 390 00:16:03,900 --> 00:16:00,009 that contempt of tradition i think does 391 00:16:06,179 --> 00:16:03,910 hold a kind of wisdom and although it's 392 00:16:09,809 --> 00:16:06,189 pretty thin now a kind of living 393 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:09,819 practice which when you're an individual 394 00:16:14,759 --> 00:16:12,730 like me there's value in trying to tap 395 00:16:16,319 --> 00:16:14,769 into that because it gives you more than 396 00:16:18,900 --> 00:16:16,329 you could discover in your own life you 397 00:16:21,210 --> 00:16:18,910 know if you can connect with the many 398 00:16:23,100 --> 00:16:21,220 generations who have tried to pursue and 399 00:16:24,869 --> 00:16:23,110 this contemplative insight this 400 00:16:27,660 --> 00:16:24,879 contemporary way of engaging with life 401 00:16:29,249 --> 00:16:27,670 at depth then you'll get more from it 402 00:16:32,699 --> 00:16:29,259 than you could possibly discover just on 403 00:16:34,949 --> 00:16:32,709 your own terms and the good thing about 404 00:16:37,499 --> 00:16:34,959 christianity is that it's already in the 405 00:16:39,689 --> 00:16:37,509 kind of air around us in the west and 406 00:16:41,939 --> 00:16:39,699 for all that it feels often rather 407 00:16:43,890 --> 00:16:41,949 poisonous air amid ease around and about 408 00:16:45,660 --> 00:16:43,900 whereas i think that for all the 409 00:16:47,310 --> 00:16:45,670 I personally have gained from Buddhist 410 00:16:49,380 --> 00:16:47,320 practice and still do and I you know I 411 00:16:52,950 --> 00:16:49,390 regularly go to Buddha said settings 412 00:16:54,420 --> 00:16:52,960 sittings hear from Buddhist teachers go 413 00:16:57,840 --> 00:16:54,430 on Buddhist for treats that kind of 414 00:16:59,850 --> 00:16:57,850 thing there's always a slight feel that 415 00:17:01,620 --> 00:16:59,860 it's not yet anyway part of our 416 00:17:03,900 --> 00:17:01,630 indigenous culture there's something 417 00:17:05,700 --> 00:17:03,910 slightly imported about it and this come 418 00:17:08,010 --> 00:17:05,710 from another place and whilst I know 419 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:08,020 lots of people are working very hard to 420 00:17:13,890 --> 00:17:11,050 make it part of Western culture for me 421 00:17:15,660 --> 00:17:13,900 there's still value in trying to tap 422 00:17:18,329 --> 00:17:15,670 into the bit of Christianity that is 423 00:17:19,860 --> 00:17:18,339 both indigenous and alive and and I 424 00:17:21,810 --> 00:17:19,870 suppose you know it's a kind of 425 00:17:23,550 --> 00:17:21,820 integration of them you know if 426 00:17:25,620 --> 00:17:23,560 Christianity has lost touch with its 427 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:25,630 contemporary of traditions in large part 428 00:17:28,590 --> 00:17:26,890 I think it's a product of the 429 00:17:30,810 --> 00:17:28,600 Reformation it's largely a historical 430 00:17:33,270 --> 00:17:30,820 thing and then Buddhism is saying to 431 00:17:34,950 --> 00:17:33,280 Christianity look you've got to bring us 432 00:17:37,020 --> 00:17:34,960 back to life this has got this has got 433 00:17:39,540 --> 00:17:37,030 to be the heart and the basic kind of 434 00:17:42,810 --> 00:17:39,550 practice of Christianity always 435 00:17:44,430 --> 00:17:42,820 Christianity will die but I'm you know 436 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:44,440 I'm committed enough to Christianity and 437 00:17:49,290 --> 00:17:46,330 not just committed in a rather abstract 438 00:17:51,570 --> 00:17:49,300 keep at a live way but I feel the life 439 00:17:54,360 --> 00:17:51,580 of it enough to want to contribute to 440 00:17:56,190 --> 00:17:54,370 trying to nurture that mmhmm yeah a 441 00:17:59,220 --> 00:17:56,200 couple things resonate with me from what 442 00:18:02,070 --> 00:17:59,230 you're saying one is a as a spiritual 443 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:02,080 practice I'm totally with what you're 444 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:05,890 saying and in diving into the depths to 445 00:18:11,460 --> 00:18:08,890 try and find the the spiritual practice 446 00:18:13,620 --> 00:18:11,470 in Christianity the truths there in 447 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:13,630 Christianity I think it's wonderful and 448 00:18:17,460 --> 00:18:14,890 i think that i resonate with another 449 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:17,470 thing that you said i think it is the 450 00:18:24,060 --> 00:18:20,730 only way to preserve and protect 451 00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:24,070 christianity is to let it to let it die 452 00:18:30,630 --> 00:18:26,530 to a certain extent to really as much as 453 00:18:32,790 --> 00:18:30,640 we can let it not be about culture let 454 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:32,800 it not be about the institution that 455 00:18:39,630 --> 00:18:35,890 it's become that it is so indefensible 456 00:18:43,230 --> 00:18:39,640 is so horrible in so many ways and I 457 00:18:47,490 --> 00:18:43,240 just sometimes wish we could be more 458 00:18:49,290 --> 00:18:47,500 explicit be more atheistic in that way 459 00:18:52,230 --> 00:18:49,300 you know you and Rupert did a nice 460 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:52,240 dialogue on separating atheism from 461 00:18:56,580 --> 00:18:53,410 science which I think was very 462 00:18:57,690 --> 00:18:56,590 insightful I I guess I'd say the same 463 00:19:01,049 --> 00:18:57,700 thing can we 464 00:19:03,690 --> 00:19:01,059 separate Christianity from from the 465 00:19:06,180 --> 00:19:03,700 Christian spiritual practice you know 466 00:19:08,970 --> 00:19:06,190 because I think they've been meshed 467 00:19:11,879 --> 00:19:08,980 together in a really unfortunate way 468 00:19:13,639 --> 00:19:11,889 that makes it very hard for people and 469 00:19:16,139 --> 00:19:13,649 for myself in my own you know 470 00:19:19,889 --> 00:19:16,149 coming-of-age kind of thing to really 471 00:19:22,049 --> 00:19:19,899 separate the two mmm I mean I know 472 00:19:23,759 --> 00:19:22,059 exactly what you're driving at and have 473 00:19:25,350 --> 00:19:23,769 felt it very keenly myself you know the 474 00:19:27,509 --> 00:19:25,360 reason why I left the church in a way 475 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:27,519 was because I felt the institution had 476 00:19:32,759 --> 00:19:30,610 become a kind of prison or worse and 477 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:32,769 that the only way that I could myself 478 00:19:39,029 --> 00:19:36,610 find kind of freedom was to need and you 479 00:19:41,730 --> 00:19:39,039 know that meant leaving practicing as a 480 00:19:43,860 --> 00:19:41,740 priest but I suppose that in my coming 481 00:19:47,220 --> 00:19:43,870 of age that happened in my late twenties 482 00:19:49,919 --> 00:19:47,230 and now I feel that you know 483 00:19:52,710 --> 00:19:49,929 institutions are part of the way that 484 00:19:56,279 --> 00:19:52,720 the wisdom is transmitted and it's not 485 00:20:00,330 --> 00:19:56,289 so easy to untangle these things I think 486 00:20:03,299 --> 00:20:00,340 that you know in academic insight in 487 00:20:05,009 --> 00:20:03,309 preserving music and the practice of the 488 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:05,019 music the performance of the music and 489 00:20:09,299 --> 00:20:07,210 in a way just keeping holy places 490 00:20:11,970 --> 00:20:09,309 standing you know which there are many 491 00:20:14,159 --> 00:20:11,980 in the UK which you know many people 492 00:20:16,169 --> 00:20:14,169 value not just churchgoers I think that 493 00:20:18,750 --> 00:20:16,179 the institution is part and parcel of 494 00:20:20,370 --> 00:20:18,760 that unfortunately in a way I suppose 495 00:20:23,039 --> 00:20:20,380 you could also argue that more deeply 496 00:20:25,289 --> 00:20:23,049 Christianity has always been a kind of 497 00:20:27,740 --> 00:20:25,299 social religion as well it's always been 498 00:20:31,310 --> 00:20:27,750 had a very strong emphasis on community 499 00:20:35,070 --> 00:20:31,320 and even you know the great monks and 500 00:20:37,710 --> 00:20:35,080 desert fathers who fled and the city and 501 00:20:41,039 --> 00:20:37,720 the politics of Christianity nonetheless 502 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:41,049 form communities and you know there's no 503 00:20:44,669 --> 00:20:43,090 forming community without some kind of 504 00:20:46,409 --> 00:20:44,679 framing of that community to hold it 505 00:20:49,620 --> 00:20:46,419 together beyond the first generation 506 00:20:50,970 --> 00:20:49,630 anyway so it's a bit like you know the 507 00:20:53,580 --> 00:20:50,980 church you can't live with it but you 508 00:20:55,139 --> 00:20:53,590 can't quite live without it either if 509 00:20:57,090 --> 00:20:55,149 you're going to be a Christian I think I 510 00:21:00,750 --> 00:20:57,100 don't know I don't know about that I I 511 00:21:04,289 --> 00:21:00,760 think let's try and untangle cuz there's 512 00:21:06,779 --> 00:21:04,299 there's a dangerous pragmatism to what 513 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:06,789 your to what you're alluding to in my 514 00:21:10,710 --> 00:21:09,010 opinion if we'd really Tranzit well yeah 515 00:21:11,670 --> 00:21:10,720 we can't really do that yeah it's an 516 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:11,680 idea that 517 00:21:15,060 --> 00:21:13,690 so easy we got these buildings full you 518 00:21:16,110 --> 00:21:15,070 know you can keep your buildings and you 519 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:16,120 can go pay for them and you can do 520 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:17,290 whatever you want with them and you can 521 00:21:22,350 --> 00:21:19,410 keep the music and you can I'm not a 522 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:22,360 police what people do with their time 523 00:21:29,220 --> 00:21:25,770 but I think there's a lot of cultural 524 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:29,230 decision making and the culture making 525 00:21:35,670 --> 00:21:31,930 that goes into that and and and and let 526 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:35,680 me use that as a kind of segue into the 527 00:21:40,620 --> 00:21:37,690 second topic I was going to throw on the 528 00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:40,630 table and that is you know what do 529 00:21:47,220 --> 00:21:43,930 spiritually transformative experiences 530 00:21:49,740 --> 00:21:47,230 as we've studied them on skeptic 0 531 00:21:52,050 --> 00:21:49,750 because they're all over the place in 532 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:52,060 science if you just kind of look in the 533 00:21:57,750 --> 00:21:54,730 right places people are talking about in 534 00:22:00,450 --> 00:21:57,760 a scientifically kind of oriented way 535 00:22:02,310 --> 00:22:00,460 spiritually transformative experiences 536 00:22:04,860 --> 00:22:02,320 be there near death experiences 537 00:22:06,570 --> 00:22:04,870 out-of-body experiences psychedelic 538 00:22:09,060 --> 00:22:06,580 experiences or any other number of 539 00:22:11,100 --> 00:22:09,070 experiences you know what do those tell 540 00:22:14,730 --> 00:22:11,110 us about religion what do they tell us 541 00:22:18,510 --> 00:22:14,740 about science and you know what are the 542 00:22:21,810 --> 00:22:18,520 prospects for resolving that because I 543 00:22:23,610 --> 00:22:21,820 think that plays into that question that 544 00:22:26,340 --> 00:22:23,620 you were just talking about and I think 545 00:22:29,130 --> 00:22:26,350 there's there's again kind of a 546 00:22:30,750 --> 00:22:29,140 dangerous pragmatism to say well we just 547 00:22:33,300 --> 00:22:30,760 have to kind of go along with our 548 00:22:35,820 --> 00:22:33,310 traditions because that's the way they 549 00:22:38,490 --> 00:22:35,830 kind of work I think there might be a 550 00:22:41,460 --> 00:22:38,500 new way of looking at this that's being 551 00:22:43,620 --> 00:22:41,470 pointed to by some of these 552 00:22:46,590 --> 00:22:43,630 transformative experiences what are your 553 00:22:47,940 --> 00:22:46,600 thoughts on that mark yeah I just one 554 00:22:49,710 --> 00:22:47,950 more thoughts on the dangerous 555 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:49,720 pragmatism because I get what you're 556 00:22:53,940 --> 00:22:51,730 saying I think that you know it slips 557 00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:53,950 into and becomes an end in itself you 558 00:22:56,640 --> 00:22:55,330 know preserving the church becomes an 559 00:22:58,410 --> 00:22:56,650 end in itself rather than serving 560 00:22:59,790 --> 00:22:58,420 something bigger and I think that's a 561 00:23:01,470 --> 00:22:59,800 huge danger and you see it not in the 562 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:01,480 Church of England because this huge 563 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:03,730 investment in the established church and 564 00:23:06,750 --> 00:23:05,530 the church of england and the trouble is 565 00:23:08,130 --> 00:23:06,760 it's got some good benefits an 566 00:23:10,050 --> 00:23:08,140 established church you know everybody 567 00:23:12,510 --> 00:23:10,060 has a parish church they can go to and 568 00:23:14,220 --> 00:23:12,520 get married in you know call on a parish 569 00:23:15,900 --> 00:23:14,230 priest when they're in times of need for 570 00:23:18,390 --> 00:23:15,910 funerals and so on there are advantages 571 00:23:19,890 --> 00:23:18,400 to it but there are huge disadvantages 572 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:19,900 to it as well which you know you're very 573 00:23:24,690 --> 00:23:22,450 clear about I wonder whether part of the 574 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:24,700 what needs to happen is that the church 575 00:23:29,570 --> 00:23:25,530 needs to be 576 00:23:32,570 --> 00:23:29,580 more open about how it has brutalized 577 00:23:34,820 --> 00:23:32,580 people how it quite rightly is the 578 00:23:37,700 --> 00:23:34,830 object of a lot of anger and because 579 00:23:38,990 --> 00:23:37,710 damage it's done and if I for me if only 580 00:23:40,580 --> 00:23:39,000 the church could be a bit more like that 581 00:23:42,860 --> 00:23:40,590 I mean one of the big debates in the UK 582 00:23:45,020 --> 00:23:42,870 at the moment is about gay marriage and 583 00:23:47,540 --> 00:23:45,030 gay clergy you know there's just 584 00:23:49,580 --> 00:23:47,550 absolutely no two ways about it the 585 00:23:52,490 --> 00:23:49,590 church has done terrible damage to go 586 00:23:55,940 --> 00:23:52,500 people by preserving homophobic 587 00:23:58,610 --> 00:23:55,950 attitudes and giving sanction to that 588 00:23:59,630 --> 00:23:58,620 kind of attitude which it's not just 589 00:24:01,700 --> 00:23:59,640 that it means that people lose their 590 00:24:04,310 --> 00:24:01,710 jobs but inside you know it can destroy 591 00:24:05,630 --> 00:24:04,320 people that kind of culture right and 592 00:24:08,540 --> 00:24:05,640 the church should be much much more open 593 00:24:10,070 --> 00:24:08,550 about that and not just open about it I 594 00:24:12,860 --> 00:24:10,080 mean and this is what I guess I'm saying 595 00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:12,870 with it with the pragmatism we we gotta 596 00:24:16,940 --> 00:24:15,330 kind of drive a stake in the ground one 597 00:24:20,570 --> 00:24:16,950 way or another and say no wait a minute 598 00:24:23,300 --> 00:24:20,580 until they clear that up the gross 599 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:23,310 you're irresponsible conduct through 600 00:24:27,410 --> 00:24:24,930 history with just take that one issue 601 00:24:30,140 --> 00:24:27,420 just gay people I mean who the heck has 602 00:24:32,150 --> 00:24:30,150 any right to say what's right and wrong 603 00:24:34,550 --> 00:24:32,160 in terms of what two people do sexually 604 00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:34,560 you know and their adult free thinking 605 00:24:39,460 --> 00:24:36,810 people it doesn't just no basis for that 606 00:24:42,110 --> 00:24:39,470 that makes any sense other than some 607 00:24:43,670 --> 00:24:42,120 historical dusty old books over here 608 00:24:46,550 --> 00:24:43,680 that some people have interpreted in a 609 00:24:48,470 --> 00:24:46,560 certain way and until and unless the 610 00:24:50,660 --> 00:24:48,480 church can come totally clean on that 611 00:24:53,330 --> 00:24:50,670 the way you're talking about then I 612 00:24:56,390 --> 00:24:53,340 think we have to kind of draw a line and 613 00:24:58,820 --> 00:24:56,400 say you know as an institution as the 614 00:25:01,280 --> 00:24:58,830 kind of society culture that we want 615 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:01,290 going forward you cannot go forward with 616 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:04,170 us until you come clean so you can play 617 00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:05,850 your pipe organs and all that but you 618 00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:07,530 can't really go forward with us until 619 00:25:11,690 --> 00:25:09,690 you come clean about that well I mean 620 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:11,700 I'm not so sure about just in 621 00:25:15,230 --> 00:25:13,050 parenthesis I'm not so sure about the 622 00:25:16,490 --> 00:25:15,240 liberal line you take there that you 623 00:25:17,870 --> 00:25:16,500 know what two people do in their bed is 624 00:25:19,130 --> 00:25:17,880 just their own business I don't think 625 00:25:20,210 --> 00:25:19,140 that's quite the case myself because it 626 00:25:22,730 --> 00:25:20,220 does have knock-on effects to other 627 00:25:24,740 --> 00:25:22,740 people I don't actually personally by 628 00:25:26,450 --> 00:25:24,750 that actually because so explain to me 629 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:26,460 what you mean bit well because when 630 00:25:29,380 --> 00:25:28,050 people form relationships you know there 631 00:25:33,470 --> 00:25:29,390 are other people they're connected to 632 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:33,480 and you know what two people do together 633 00:25:36,950 --> 00:25:35,010 was never just their own business I'm 634 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:36,960 think actually and even if it's just 635 00:25:40,700 --> 00:25:38,970 their friends there you know 636 00:25:42,049 --> 00:25:40,710 they're having an affair the marriage 637 00:25:45,020 --> 00:25:42,059 they've left whatever it might be you 638 00:25:46,039 --> 00:25:45,030 know the liberal idea that you can do 639 00:25:48,260 --> 00:25:46,049 what you like as you jump songs you 640 00:25:50,380 --> 00:25:48,270 don't harm anyone else well I think it's 641 00:25:53,630 --> 00:25:50,390 never quite that clear cut myself in 642 00:25:55,100 --> 00:25:53,640 what way in what way would we but I 643 00:25:57,110 --> 00:25:55,110 don't think that means that some 644 00:26:00,500 --> 00:25:57,120 authoritarian church that doesn't pay 645 00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:00,510 that doesn't try even to listen to the 646 00:26:04,549 --> 00:26:02,730 experience of people in this domain I 647 00:26:06,470 --> 00:26:04,559 don't think it really has tried to has 648 00:26:09,830 --> 00:26:06,480 the right to impose you know kind of 649 00:26:13,220 --> 00:26:09,840 like flat laws and that sort of just as 650 00:26:14,750 --> 00:26:13,230 brutalizing and so I disagree with that 651 00:26:16,850 --> 00:26:14,760 as well you know I'm with you on that 652 00:26:19,820 --> 00:26:16,860 that side of the arguments well what 653 00:26:22,070 --> 00:26:19,830 agency or authority of any kind would 654 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:22,080 have anything to say about that I mean 655 00:26:26,930 --> 00:26:24,210 what what what when we what could we 656 00:26:29,659 --> 00:26:26,940 possibly legislate there I mean we can 657 00:26:31,850 --> 00:26:29,669 legislate a behavior but I mean in 658 00:26:33,649 --> 00:26:31,860 general kind of libertarian kind of 659 00:26:36,110 --> 00:26:33,659 values that we share would suggest that 660 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:36,120 you know these kind of private decisions 661 00:26:41,210 --> 00:26:38,450 that consenting adults make on their own 662 00:26:43,549 --> 00:26:41,220 we we've kind of made this decision that 663 00:26:44,630 --> 00:26:43,559 we stay out of that yeah I think the 664 00:26:46,310 --> 00:26:44,640 church shouldn't be the business of 665 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:46,320 legislation make the you know the state 666 00:26:50,120 --> 00:26:47,850 has to be in the business of legislation 667 00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:50,130 sometimes but the church shouldn't be 668 00:26:54,890 --> 00:26:53,250 the church should be a kind of resource 669 00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:54,900 for people to help understand their 670 00:26:59,779 --> 00:26:57,210 lives to discern what they're doing and 671 00:27:02,510 --> 00:26:59,789 you know so there's a kind of reflective 672 00:27:04,669 --> 00:27:02,520 practice so that we don't just as a word 673 00:27:06,890 --> 00:27:04,679 treat our our sex lives as kind of we 674 00:27:08,570 --> 00:27:06,900 treat our lives as consumers where we 675 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:08,580 can just sort of pursue our pleasures as 676 00:27:12,740 --> 00:27:11,010 if you know our own free choices don't 677 00:27:13,789 --> 00:27:12,750 really matter to anybody else and it 678 00:27:15,770 --> 00:27:13,799 seems to me of that kind of attitude 679 00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:15,780 which i think is the way that 680 00:27:21,169 --> 00:27:18,570 libertarianism often can feel and even 681 00:27:22,399 --> 00:27:21,179 if it's not meant quite like that you 682 00:27:24,950 --> 00:27:22,409 know that's that's just as much 683 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:24,960 destructive of life as you know kind of 684 00:27:29,360 --> 00:27:27,330 brutal laws from on high well maybe not 685 00:27:31,039 --> 00:27:29,370 quite as much but you know it has a it's 686 00:27:34,250 --> 00:27:31,049 not it doesn't lead to a deepening of 687 00:27:35,899 --> 00:27:34,260 life think so so I think the church 688 00:27:38,120 --> 00:27:35,909 should I think actually Christianity 689 00:27:41,620 --> 00:27:38,130 should always resist being reduced to 690 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:41,630 kind of moral and a set of moral laws or 691 00:27:46,039 --> 00:27:44,010 moral system I think that's actually a 692 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:46,049 corruption of Christianity it's not for 693 00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:48,210 me what Jesus stood for at all what he 694 00:27:52,989 --> 00:27:51,090 stood for and is the capacity to deepen 695 00:27:54,789 --> 00:27:52,999 your experience of life and to see 696 00:27:56,769 --> 00:27:54,799 life in all its fullness it was a kind 697 00:27:59,499 --> 00:27:56,779 of transformation of your sight not of 698 00:28:01,149 --> 00:27:59,509 your behavior and although clearly if 699 00:28:03,459 --> 00:28:01,159 you see life in a different way then and 700 00:28:05,469 --> 00:28:03,469 you're likely to change how you behave 701 00:28:07,269 --> 00:28:05,479 in life too and for me it's always a 702 00:28:09,129 --> 00:28:07,279 horrible reduction of religion when it 703 00:28:11,649 --> 00:28:09,139 becomes a kind of moral system and 704 00:28:14,589 --> 00:28:11,659 rather than opening and expanding of 705 00:28:17,049 --> 00:28:14,599 your spiritual self a practice a way of 706 00:28:20,199 --> 00:28:17,059 you know being with others and so on 707 00:28:21,879 --> 00:28:20,209 Adam on to a kind of judgment of the 708 00:28:23,649 --> 00:28:21,889 negative side of one cell phones pride 709 00:28:25,449 --> 00:28:23,659 and anger and hate and all that kind of 710 00:28:27,069 --> 00:28:25,459 thing abeyta in a funny sort of way 711 00:28:29,529 --> 00:28:27,079 actually I think that psychotherapy and 712 00:28:31,539 --> 00:28:29,539 its best embodies that kind of wisdom 713 00:28:33,309 --> 00:28:31,549 tradition better often now than the 714 00:28:34,869 --> 00:28:33,319 established church you know if you go to 715 00:28:37,659 --> 00:28:34,879 a therapist the therapist won't judge 716 00:28:39,189 --> 00:28:37,669 your behavior in a moral sense but they 717 00:28:41,199 --> 00:28:39,199 will ask you to consider what 718 00:28:43,419 --> 00:28:41,209 ramifications it has and what 719 00:28:46,299 --> 00:28:43,429 responsibility and you have and what 720 00:28:48,189 --> 00:28:46,309 kind of life and you're leading and what 721 00:28:50,739 --> 00:28:48,199 kind of person you're becoming and by 722 00:28:52,299 --> 00:28:50,749 and behaving in such a way hopefully 723 00:28:54,939 --> 00:28:52,309 it'll do it with a kind of compassionate 724 00:28:56,409 --> 00:28:54,949 view and that tries to understand how 725 00:28:58,839 --> 00:28:56,419 you got to the point you've got to as 726 00:29:01,329 --> 00:28:58,849 well and but it you know life in all its 727 00:29:03,519 --> 00:29:01,339 fullness is a difficult task I think 728 00:29:07,419 --> 00:29:03,529 it's not actually much held by a sort of 729 00:29:09,189 --> 00:29:07,429 the simple libertarianism anyway gosh I 730 00:29:12,339 --> 00:29:09,199 don't know there's so many topics I 731 00:29:15,879 --> 00:29:12,349 could kind of pic on there one I I don't 732 00:29:18,879 --> 00:29:15,889 understand how or why we would want to 733 00:29:20,859 --> 00:29:18,889 legislate that kind of moral behavior 734 00:29:23,409 --> 00:29:20,869 you know i mean i think if we want to 735 00:29:27,549 --> 00:29:23,419 kind of I understand what you're saying 736 00:29:29,709 --> 00:29:27,559 I think in that up maybe a pure kind of 737 00:29:31,719 --> 00:29:29,719 spiritual the church needs to stay out 738 00:29:34,089 --> 00:29:31,729 of that may be enough said there the 739 00:29:36,699 --> 00:29:34,099 church is not the authority there the 740 00:29:39,009 --> 00:29:36,709 authority is the individual who goes on 741 00:29:41,469 --> 00:29:39,019 a spiritual path finds their truth and 742 00:29:43,899 --> 00:29:41,479 then lives that truth I think that's all 743 00:29:47,679 --> 00:29:43,909 we need I think everything works out in 744 00:29:50,679 --> 00:29:47,689 its it has worked out I mean the the 745 00:29:53,529 --> 00:29:50,689 moral arc and I just interviewed atheist 746 00:29:55,119 --> 00:29:53,539 Michael Shermer who is confused about a 747 00:29:58,419 --> 00:29:55,129 lot of things because he's an atheist 748 00:30:01,779 --> 00:29:58,429 and he denies any kind of consciousness 749 00:30:03,729 --> 00:30:01,789 that might exist let alone spirituality 750 00:30:05,249 --> 00:30:03,739 that might exist in the individual he 751 00:30:06,820 --> 00:30:05,259 has this kind of mechanistic 752 00:30:08,500 --> 00:30:06,830 materialistic reduction 753 00:30:10,990 --> 00:30:08,510 mystic kind of view a thing and that 754 00:30:13,899 --> 00:30:11,000 puts him in a box that makes it very 755 00:30:16,659 --> 00:30:13,909 hard for him to think his way out of on 756 00:30:19,330 --> 00:30:16,669 the other hand I think he does a good 757 00:30:22,330 --> 00:30:19,340 job of pointing out that you know the 758 00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:22,340 the positive moral arc that we see in 759 00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:25,490 our civilization like getting rid of 760 00:30:32,110 --> 00:30:28,850 slavery being assertive of people's 761 00:30:34,389 --> 00:30:32,120 rights like we were just talking about 762 00:30:38,380 --> 00:30:34,399 gay rights and those kind of things you 763 00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:38,390 know is a positive moral arc that we can 764 00:30:42,610 --> 00:30:40,730 see that isn't tied to religion right 765 00:30:45,370 --> 00:30:42,620 there wasn't some parchment that was 766 00:30:47,529 --> 00:30:45,380 discovered that then through the weight 767 00:30:49,509 --> 00:30:47,539 of everything on on saying oh you know 768 00:30:51,340 --> 00:30:49,519 we should really abolish slavery hey 769 00:30:53,230 --> 00:30:51,350 that we know the history of that there 770 00:30:55,539 --> 00:30:53,240 were the Christians were on both sides 771 00:30:58,360 --> 00:30:55,549 of it so the abolitionist movement was 772 00:31:00,580 --> 00:30:58,370 driven by Christians but the slavery 773 00:31:02,860 --> 00:31:00,590 movement was driven by Christians too so 774 00:31:04,539 --> 00:31:02,870 there's no winner in that instead it was 775 00:31:07,419 --> 00:31:04,549 kind of this collective consciousness 776 00:31:10,509 --> 00:31:07,429 that said this is not who we want to be 777 00:31:12,580 --> 00:31:10,519 as human beings and I think that's all 778 00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:12,590 we need to drive things forward and I'm 779 00:31:17,710 --> 00:31:14,450 a little bit concerned when we kind of 780 00:31:19,389 --> 00:31:17,720 allude to you know this kind of that we 781 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:19,399 have some understanding of that that 782 00:31:25,509 --> 00:31:22,970 that is separate from what just might 783 00:31:27,279 --> 00:31:25,519 evolve as a culture and I guess I was 784 00:31:30,669 --> 00:31:27,289 picking on your idea that you know hey 785 00:31:32,769 --> 00:31:30,679 it's not okay for people to do what they 786 00:31:34,629 --> 00:31:32,779 want in the privacy of their own room 787 00:31:37,919 --> 00:31:34,639 with two consenting adults and unlike my 788 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:37,929 I don't know I think as a as a 789 00:31:43,299 --> 00:31:40,730 legislator it you know as a voter i 790 00:31:45,129 --> 00:31:43,309 would say i need to stay out of that 791 00:31:47,830 --> 00:31:45,139 that's not I need to just worried about 792 00:31:49,629 --> 00:31:47,840 my own spiritual path and then 793 00:31:52,210 --> 00:31:49,639 collectively we'll all figure that out 794 00:31:55,149 --> 00:31:52,220 and I'm a little bit concerned when we 795 00:31:58,779 --> 00:31:55,159 kind of can't see eye to eye on that 796 00:31:59,950 --> 00:31:58,789 yeah I'm um well and this is again 797 00:32:01,419 --> 00:31:59,960 there's a lot but we're talking about a 798 00:32:02,950 --> 00:32:01,429 lot of things aren't we but maybe used 799 00:32:04,769 --> 00:32:02,960 to throw in a couple of points which 800 00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:04,779 occurred to me as you were talking there 801 00:32:11,169 --> 00:32:08,210 one is that this is about the individual 802 00:32:13,750 --> 00:32:11,179 and finding their own spiritual path and 803 00:32:15,789 --> 00:32:13,760 so on again I just don't think that is 804 00:32:18,039 --> 00:32:15,799 how it really happens you know as an 805 00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:18,049 individual you're always always already 806 00:32:21,630 --> 00:32:20,050 born into a certain kind of time 807 00:32:24,030 --> 00:32:21,640 place you've always already picked up 808 00:32:26,340 --> 00:32:24,040 certain ideas and because of the melia 809 00:32:28,290 --> 00:32:26,350 in which you're born and that's going to 810 00:32:29,700 --> 00:32:28,300 shape your experience doing this I don't 811 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:29,710 personally I don't think there is any 812 00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:32,050 kind of like raw experience that it's 813 00:32:37,740 --> 00:32:34,690 not shaped by how we interpret it and 814 00:32:39,690 --> 00:32:37,750 our upbringing and so on and so I think 815 00:32:41,970 --> 00:32:39,700 that you're always already part of 816 00:32:43,770 --> 00:32:41,980 traditions so the option is not to sort 817 00:32:45,990 --> 00:32:43,780 of uptown to traditions the question is 818 00:32:48,180 --> 00:32:46,000 whether or not you and go into 819 00:32:50,340 --> 00:32:48,190 traditions critically in a discerning 820 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:50,350 way and try and grow through those 821 00:32:55,250 --> 00:32:52,930 traditions and so on and so that'd be 822 00:32:57,980 --> 00:32:55,260 one comment that the second thing is 823 00:33:00,360 --> 00:32:57,990 about this idea about human nature and 824 00:33:01,770 --> 00:33:00,370 progress you didn't I think you quite 825 00:33:05,490 --> 00:33:01,780 use the word progress but this kind of 826 00:33:07,710 --> 00:33:05,500 arc of a positive moral development now 827 00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:07,720 and it's easy to point to positive moral 828 00:33:11,910 --> 00:33:09,730 developments and you highlight slavery 829 00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:11,920 the the cities of women is an obvious 830 00:33:17,190 --> 00:33:14,050 one I think you know the gay issue is 831 00:33:19,830 --> 00:33:17,200 coming to the fore now but i must say 832 00:33:22,650 --> 00:33:19,840 that i'm more also feel the for every 833 00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:22,660 step forward that human kind takes in 834 00:33:26,310 --> 00:33:24,610 terms of his civilization somewhere else 835 00:33:28,740 --> 00:33:26,320 you can find a step that is taken back 836 00:33:31,110 --> 00:33:28,750 and I mean the obvious example of this 837 00:33:33,780 --> 00:33:31,120 comes to me it comes to mind is the 838 00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:33,790 ecological crisis which is now pending I 839 00:33:37,890 --> 00:33:35,770 just wonder whether in 100 years or 200 840 00:33:40,980 --> 00:33:37,900 years time it'll even be possible to 841 00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:40,990 imagine that human humanity imagined at 842 00:33:44,430 --> 00:33:42,490 the beginning of the 21st century that 843 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:44,440 was on a kind of upwards arc of progress 844 00:33:48,900 --> 00:33:46,450 and you know when perhaps billions have 845 00:33:50,340 --> 00:33:48,910 died you know the Earth's heated up and 846 00:33:52,530 --> 00:33:50,350 and you know and all that kind of thing 847 00:33:54,510 --> 00:33:52,540 I think maybe our time now will look 848 00:33:56,340 --> 00:33:54,520 like a time when you know we were 849 00:33:59,220 --> 00:33:56,350 fiddling while Rome burned as it were 850 00:34:00,750 --> 00:33:59,230 and the human nature will I think it 851 00:34:02,820 --> 00:34:00,760 seemed to be a much more ambivalent 852 00:34:05,250 --> 00:34:02,830 thing that whilst there is definitely 853 00:34:07,380 --> 00:34:05,260 are striving to progress even in spite 854 00:34:10,590 --> 00:34:07,390 of ourselves we kind of at the same time 855 00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:10,600 as destructive as we are positive so I 856 00:34:14,700 --> 00:34:12,850 I'm more on that side that what William 857 00:34:16,980 --> 00:34:14,710 James called the sort of tragic view of 858 00:34:19,530 --> 00:34:16,990 human nature rather than a more positive 859 00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:19,540 view and which he also he did you know 860 00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:20,770 this distinction in the varieties of 861 00:34:24,240 --> 00:34:22,570 religious experience he says that there 862 00:34:26,700 --> 00:34:24,250 are some people and who are what he 863 00:34:29,190 --> 00:34:26,710 called and the wants form and that feel 864 00:34:31,500 --> 00:34:29,200 that if the task in human life is just 865 00:34:33,720 --> 00:34:31,510 to sort of basically so to iron out the 866 00:34:35,849 --> 00:34:33,730 difficulties understand the anger and 867 00:34:37,950 --> 00:34:35,859 then you know throwing efforts as it 868 00:34:40,139 --> 00:34:37,960 were we can we can sail into a better 869 00:34:42,300 --> 00:34:40,149 future and whereas he thought that there 870 00:34:43,950 --> 00:34:42,310 are other people who religions 871 00:34:45,119 --> 00:34:43,960 particularly he thought that regard 872 00:34:47,820 --> 00:34:45,129 human beings is what he called twice 873 00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:47,830 born whereas something has to die you 874 00:34:52,139 --> 00:34:49,330 know there's a kind of tragic quality 875 00:34:53,730 --> 00:34:52,149 about human life but it's through that a 876 00:34:56,490 --> 00:34:53,740 recognition of that tragedy that new 877 00:34:59,520 --> 00:34:56,500 life is born and I guess I'm much more 878 00:35:01,950 --> 00:34:59,530 on the side of the tragic view of human 879 00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:01,960 life yeah now you're jumping over to the 880 00:35:06,750 --> 00:35:04,690 side that I usually take mark right here 881 00:35:10,050 --> 00:35:06,760 but I agree that and I think we could 882 00:35:12,900 --> 00:35:10,060 point to as I have before slavery is not 883 00:35:17,070 --> 00:35:12,910 dead slave there's more people enslaved 884 00:35:19,380 --> 00:35:17,080 now today than any time at any point in 885 00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:19,390 history probably because there's a 886 00:35:23,940 --> 00:35:22,210 larger population but even in the United 887 00:35:27,599 --> 00:35:23,950 States people don't like to think about 888 00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:27,609 the number of slaves sex trafficking 889 00:35:33,090 --> 00:35:29,890 those kind of slaves but also domestic 890 00:35:36,359 --> 00:35:33,100 slaves in indentured servants and worse 891 00:35:39,630 --> 00:35:36,369 that still you know exist I think it's 892 00:35:42,780 --> 00:35:39,640 it's horrible that we right now as we're 893 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:42,790 talking we let people die we let little 894 00:35:48,990 --> 00:35:46,450 kids die of starvation of lack of clean 895 00:35:51,150 --> 00:35:49,000 water of the basic kind of stuff that 896 00:35:54,030 --> 00:35:51,160 you just run the economics and it costs 897 00:35:56,820 --> 00:35:54,040 pennies to bring this kind of relief to 898 00:36:01,200 --> 00:35:56,830 people and we don't we make that moral 899 00:36:03,240 --> 00:36:01,210 decision kind of not to so yeah I'm with 900 00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:03,250 you and I under it and I guess I take 901 00:36:10,470 --> 00:36:05,770 from a spiritual perspective I take more 902 00:36:13,620 --> 00:36:10,480 of a kind of Gnostic view of I think we 903 00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:13,630 might be misunderstanding the purpose of 904 00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:18,930 this life in this earth and it's not to 905 00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:23,050 better the society and get beggar bigger 906 00:36:28,349 --> 00:36:26,290 better faster and to then rack up the 907 00:36:31,140 --> 00:36:28,359 points for our little moral 908 00:36:33,900 --> 00:36:31,150 accomplishments that we see that the 909 00:36:36,930 --> 00:36:33,910 scale is much bigger than that and we're 910 00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:36,940 just playing a very small minor role in 911 00:36:41,550 --> 00:36:38,890 it but that would kind of bring me at 912 00:36:43,770 --> 00:36:41,560 odds with what you said before because I 913 00:36:46,770 --> 00:36:43,780 think also may be getting back to that 914 00:36:47,490 --> 00:36:46,780 original kind of question I look at the 915 00:36:50,100 --> 00:36:47,500 science 916 00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:50,110 of spiritual transformative experiences 917 00:36:55,230 --> 00:36:52,450 and it does tell me some things that 918 00:36:57,420 --> 00:36:55,240 contradict with what you say I think 919 00:37:01,080 --> 00:36:57,430 there are people that are born into 920 00:37:04,830 --> 00:37:01,090 cultures that are kind of at odds with 921 00:37:07,860 --> 00:37:04,840 their imprinting maybe even at odds if 922 00:37:10,230 --> 00:37:07,870 you'll allow it with their reincarnation 923 00:37:12,030 --> 00:37:10,240 I think there's people who are Buddhists 924 00:37:14,490 --> 00:37:12,040 who are born into Christian families and 925 00:37:16,730 --> 00:37:14,500 I think they report that you know this 926 00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:16,740 is part of the if you look into the 927 00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:19,810 reincarnation literature best done at 928 00:37:25,770 --> 00:37:22,570 the University of Virginia by dr. jim 929 00:37:28,580 --> 00:37:25,780 tucker people report exactly these kind 930 00:37:31,260 --> 00:37:28,590 of accounts but just if you look at the 931 00:37:33,420 --> 00:37:31,270 contemporary kind of Enlightenment 932 00:37:35,550 --> 00:37:33,430 movement of people that I've looked at a 933 00:37:37,380 --> 00:37:35,560 lot and I think is extremely important 934 00:37:40,020 --> 00:37:37,390 in looking at this but people have 935 00:37:43,050 --> 00:37:40,030 experienced for lack of a better word 936 00:37:46,230 --> 00:37:43,060 this kind of transformative experience 937 00:37:50,490 --> 00:37:46,240 of enlightenment and they'll say that 938 00:37:53,580 --> 00:37:50,500 they're their previous life was kind of 939 00:37:55,770 --> 00:37:53,590 out of sync with their spiritual life 940 00:37:57,750 --> 00:37:55,780 and that somehow this transformation 941 00:38:01,170 --> 00:37:57,760 brought it back and maybe they find some 942 00:38:03,870 --> 00:38:01,180 you know you mentioned Jesus there's so 943 00:38:05,970 --> 00:38:03,880 many different spiritual figures or 944 00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:05,980 entities if you will that people connect 945 00:38:10,950 --> 00:38:07,570 with but people will connect with their 946 00:38:12,990 --> 00:38:10,960 guru or even a deceased spiritual guide 947 00:38:14,550 --> 00:38:13,000 and will say that was my spiritual guide 948 00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:14,560 and they came from a completely 949 00:38:19,260 --> 00:38:16,690 different tradition than the one that I 950 00:38:22,290 --> 00:38:19,270 was born into so I don't know how far we 951 00:38:24,240 --> 00:38:22,300 can go down that path without just kind 952 00:38:28,130 --> 00:38:24,250 of totally throwing people for for a 953 00:38:30,450 --> 00:38:28,140 loop but I take those accounts if not 954 00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:30,460 serious I do take them seriously i was 955 00:38:34,860 --> 00:38:32,770 going to equivocate but I do take those 956 00:38:36,990 --> 00:38:34,870 seriously especially in the whole if not 957 00:38:38,670 --> 00:38:37,000 one account when you hear hundreds and 958 00:38:40,380 --> 00:38:38,680 hundreds of those and the patterns start 959 00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:40,390 repeating I think there's something 960 00:38:44,820 --> 00:38:43,210 there worth looking at and I think it 961 00:38:46,620 --> 00:38:44,830 points in a different direction than the 962 00:38:49,620 --> 00:38:46,630 one that you're stating that hey you 963 00:38:51,330 --> 00:38:49,630 know we kind of got a deal with this 964 00:38:53,190 --> 00:38:51,340 Christian culture because we're born 965 00:38:55,590 --> 00:38:53,200 into the west and that's kind of our 966 00:38:58,350 --> 00:38:55,600 tradition I mean I think that fits for a 967 00:39:00,570 --> 00:38:58,360 lot of once borns but I think for us 968 00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:00,580 twice borns there's a whole different 969 00:39:03,390 --> 00:39:01,090 set of 970 00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:03,400 reese's that we can make yeah I mean I 971 00:39:07,890 --> 00:39:06,130 again I I certainly want to get in 972 00:39:09,870 --> 00:39:07,900 defending the shirts though Christianity 973 00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:09,880 for its own sake but i guess i do feel 974 00:39:14,100 --> 00:39:12,490 it is a resource out there that mostly 975 00:39:16,140 --> 00:39:14,110 for reasons that the church needs to 976 00:39:18,330 --> 00:39:16,150 take responsibility for people don't 977 00:39:23,130 --> 00:39:18,340 even think of it as a place you know 978 00:39:25,260 --> 00:39:23,140 where they might find a sucker and help 979 00:39:27,420 --> 00:39:25,270 and guidance and discernment that's 980 00:39:29,670 --> 00:39:27,430 expansive that can take these kinds of 981 00:39:32,490 --> 00:39:29,680 as if you may be the kind of raw 982 00:39:34,380 --> 00:39:32,500 experience of something more of a kind 983 00:39:36,750 --> 00:39:34,390 of possible transformation or an actual 984 00:39:38,790 --> 00:39:36,760 transformation and develop it grow into 985 00:39:41,130 --> 00:39:38,800 it you know i think that it the church 986 00:39:42,660 --> 00:39:41,140 it has lost out in a way on many 987 00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:42,670 generations and perhaps were of those 988 00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:45,370 generations for people just don't think 989 00:39:49,260 --> 00:39:48,010 to turn to it anymore and you know that 990 00:39:51,420 --> 00:39:49,270 that's the kind of there's a sadness 991 00:39:54,180 --> 00:39:51,430 there i guess i think there's a sadness 992 00:39:56,190 --> 00:39:54,190 there and i think we really need to 993 00:39:58,680 --> 00:39:56,200 recognize that wound and i think you 994 00:40:01,290 --> 00:39:58,690 have in a very thoughtful way i mean i 995 00:40:02,790 --> 00:40:01,300 think you're you're open about your life 996 00:40:05,090 --> 00:40:02,800 experience of moving away from the 997 00:40:08,700 --> 00:40:05,100 church and then trying to find a way to 998 00:40:10,350 --> 00:40:08,710 take back what is worth preserving for 999 00:40:14,190 --> 00:40:10,360 yourself personally I think that's 1000 00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:14,200 awesome i totally salute that yeah yeah 1001 00:40:20,430 --> 00:40:16,810 and I suppose why I want one perhaps 1002 00:40:22,290 --> 00:40:20,440 this is a different tack about the whole 1003 00:40:24,270 --> 00:40:22,300 business of spiritual experience and 1004 00:40:26,790 --> 00:40:24,280 because I think that one thing that's 1005 00:40:28,590 --> 00:40:26,800 quite common in different spiritual 1006 00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:28,600 traditions is certainly in Christianity 1007 00:40:33,750 --> 00:40:30,610 if you read um you know figures like my 1008 00:40:35,790 --> 00:40:33,760 sister I cart or the Spanish mystics and 1009 00:40:37,770 --> 00:40:35,800 I'm sure you find it i hope Buddhist 1010 00:40:40,770 --> 00:40:37,780 teachers say to me something similar 1011 00:40:43,580 --> 00:40:40,780 which is that the peak experience if you 1012 00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:43,590 like the transformative experience is as 1013 00:40:49,890 --> 00:40:47,170 imprisoning as feeling depressed or 1014 00:40:52,380 --> 00:40:49,900 feeling anxious or feeling fear it just 1015 00:40:55,470 --> 00:40:52,390 attracts you in trying to strive for 1016 00:40:57,150 --> 00:40:55,480 another sort of elated sense as much as 1017 00:41:00,840 --> 00:40:57,160 trying to run away from a horrible 1018 00:41:04,170 --> 00:41:00,850 experience can and you know the Buddhist 1019 00:41:05,970 --> 00:41:04,180 line is to not be attached even to the 1020 00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:05,980 you know the ups as well as not being 1021 00:41:11,100 --> 00:41:08,290 attached to the downs in Christian 1022 00:41:13,260 --> 00:41:11,110 mysticism people put it in terms of how 1023 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:13,270 the thing about experience is that it's 1024 00:41:17,250 --> 00:41:15,010 always human experience 1025 00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:17,260 and if you're on the the Christian 1026 00:41:21,930 --> 00:41:19,210 spiritual path what you seek actually 1027 00:41:25,350 --> 00:41:21,940 and is some kind of letting go of 1028 00:41:28,260 --> 00:41:25,360 yourself into the divine and so that's a 1029 00:41:30,540 --> 00:41:28,270 constant letting go on and even if your 1030 00:41:32,370 --> 00:41:30,550 own good experiences as well to 1031 00:41:34,740 --> 00:41:32,380 constantly move into this experience 1032 00:41:37,250 --> 00:41:34,750 which ultimately is not in a way to use 1033 00:41:39,750 --> 00:41:37,260 the word experience and is inadequate 1034 00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:39,760 because we're talking about the divine 1035 00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:42,010 here and so I think that's there is a 1036 00:41:48,300 --> 00:41:45,570 quite a danger in a way in modern 1037 00:41:50,940 --> 00:41:48,310 spirituality and which identifies with 1038 00:41:52,890 --> 00:41:50,950 kind of peak experience with the up and 1039 00:41:56,280 --> 00:41:52,900 that it said that's actually perhaps 1040 00:41:57,840 --> 00:41:56,290 just as entrapping as anything else 1041 00:42:00,090 --> 00:41:57,850 because it leads to a kind of a sort of 1042 00:42:01,770 --> 00:42:00,100 spiritual addiction almost where you're 1043 00:42:04,620 --> 00:42:01,780 constantly looking for the next sort of 1044 00:42:06,900 --> 00:42:04,630 spiritual high or good feeling or merger 1045 00:42:10,770 --> 00:42:06,910 and I think that's in a way it is 1046 00:42:12,900 --> 00:42:10,780 infantilizing as many other dangers on a 1047 00:42:15,900 --> 00:42:12,910 spiritual path I know where you're going 1048 00:42:18,390 --> 00:42:15,910 with that I think it can be I think that 1049 00:42:20,370 --> 00:42:18,400 all that stuff leg which kind of falls 1050 00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:20,380 apart and I think we can turn everything 1051 00:42:26,430 --> 00:42:22,810 you're saying around and it's equally 1052 00:42:28,950 --> 00:42:26,440 true so one can be completely open and 1053 00:42:31,350 --> 00:42:28,960 embracing to all that experience and 1054 00:42:33,240 --> 00:42:31,360 then transcend it as well right so one 1055 00:42:35,670 --> 00:42:33,250 way to transcendence is is the kind of 1056 00:42:38,550 --> 00:42:35,680 traditional Buddhist line of kind of 1057 00:42:40,740 --> 00:42:38,560 denial a denial the ecstasy of your 1058 00:42:43,140 --> 00:42:40,750 enlightenment you know deny deny look 1059 00:42:45,090 --> 00:42:43,150 past it look past it the other is to 1060 00:42:48,030 --> 00:42:45,100 embrace all of it you know embrace all 1061 00:42:49,230 --> 00:42:48,040 of the the good the bad embrace 1062 00:42:52,860 --> 00:42:49,240 everything but now we're getting into 1063 00:42:54,690 --> 00:42:52,870 kind of deep spiritual kind of stuff 1064 00:42:57,750 --> 00:42:54,700 that is really us out of my depth 1065 00:43:00,540 --> 00:42:57,760 because i am not that i'm not that 1066 00:43:03,240 --> 00:43:00,550 spiritually advanced i'm just that 1067 00:43:05,010 --> 00:43:03,250 little earthworm kind of sticking his 1068 00:43:06,720 --> 00:43:05,020 head above the ground every now and then 1069 00:43:08,730 --> 00:43:06,730 I'll tell you what before we run out of 1070 00:43:12,510 --> 00:43:08,740 time I want to throw another topic on 1071 00:43:15,170 --> 00:43:12,520 the table you and Rupert did an 1072 00:43:18,990 --> 00:43:15,180 interesting dialogue on what 1073 00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:19,000 Christianity gets right and I want to 1074 00:43:25,170 --> 00:43:20,770 turn the tables a little bit and say 1075 00:43:27,540 --> 00:43:25,180 what do atheists get right what are they 1076 00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:27,550 telling us that's that's right that kind 1077 00:43:31,700 --> 00:43:28,890 of can inform 1078 00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:31,710 this discussion that we're having in 1079 00:43:36,250 --> 00:43:33,090 terms of how to move forward with 1080 00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:36,260 spirituality and science and culture 1081 00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:38,970 yeah of course you know the thing is 1082 00:43:44,570 --> 00:43:41,130 that there are atheists and atheists and 1083 00:43:47,060 --> 00:43:44,580 uh but but let's get let's get past that 1084 00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:47,070 because atheism means what those people 1085 00:43:50,540 --> 00:43:48,930 at the Atheist convention get together 1086 00:43:52,430 --> 00:43:50,550 and talk about what those people who 1087 00:43:54,650 --> 00:43:52,440 write the books talk about this you know 1088 00:43:56,510 --> 00:43:54,660 atheism just means a nun belief in God 1089 00:43:59,120 --> 00:43:56,520 [\h__\h] you know I mean come on let's 1090 00:44:00,320 --> 00:43:59,130 get past that we know who you are you 1091 00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:00,330 have something to bring to the table 1092 00:44:03,950 --> 00:44:02,850 let's talk about that yes so the kind of 1093 00:44:06,290 --> 00:44:03,960 atheists which I would like to talk 1094 00:44:09,890 --> 00:44:06,300 about that I do learn something from 1095 00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:09,900 actually are the group that have set up 1096 00:44:14,300 --> 00:44:11,970 what's called the sunday assembly in the 1097 00:44:16,460 --> 00:44:14,310 UK that I think is now in the US as well 1098 00:44:18,290 --> 00:44:16,470 and so this is a group of atheists that 1099 00:44:19,820 --> 00:44:18,300 felt disillusioned with the church but 1100 00:44:21,350 --> 00:44:19,830 felt that they had were missing 1101 00:44:24,290 --> 00:44:21,360 something by not gathering with other 1102 00:44:26,030 --> 00:44:24,300 people and and also sort of seeking a 1103 00:44:27,950 --> 00:44:26,040 sort of spiritual dimension in life and 1104 00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:27,960 but they didn't want to associate that 1105 00:44:35,870 --> 00:44:32,090 with Christianity or with monotheism and 1106 00:44:37,310 --> 00:44:35,880 that the sunday assembly I think it's on 1107 00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:37,320 to something because there's a kind of 1108 00:44:43,580 --> 00:44:39,530 freedom of exploration there which I 1109 00:44:45,170 --> 00:44:43,590 have valued and that it's not defined by 1110 00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:45,180 what they're against which I think so 1111 00:44:51,530 --> 00:44:48,690 much of atheism is but it's a it's 1112 00:44:54,740 --> 00:44:51,540 defined by a kind of almost like an 1113 00:44:56,420 --> 00:44:54,750 innocent new quest to set off again and 1114 00:44:58,850 --> 00:44:56,430 there's a kind of freshness in that 1115 00:45:00,320 --> 00:44:58,860 which I very much value which when you 1116 00:45:01,610 --> 00:45:00,330 belong to you know like the Church of 1117 00:45:04,100 --> 00:45:01,620 England which has been around for 1118 00:45:06,730 --> 00:45:04,110 centuries already and that kind of quest 1119 00:45:09,650 --> 00:45:06,740 for direct experience that enthusiasm 1120 00:45:11,810 --> 00:45:09,660 can get a bit lost amid the traditions 1121 00:45:14,900 --> 00:45:11,820 and what's so familiar and so on and so 1122 00:45:19,180 --> 00:45:14,910 in as much as and that kind of atheistic 1123 00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:19,190 quest is has that kind of vitality to it 1124 00:45:24,770 --> 00:45:21,810 an open bite and see though not a 1125 00:45:26,630 --> 00:45:24,780 knocking others kind of vitality I think 1126 00:45:28,490 --> 00:45:26,640 that that's that's a I mean what I own 1127 00:45:30,470 --> 00:45:28,500 you know some of those atheists are my 1128 00:45:32,330 --> 00:45:30,480 friends you might say well they are 1129 00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:32,340 haven't I learned something from that ya 1130 00:45:39,380 --> 00:45:36,930 see I'm I'm even more open I'm open to 1131 00:45:41,900 --> 00:45:39,390 some of the stuff that the atheists are 1132 00:45:42,830 --> 00:45:41,910 against I think they do an important job 1133 00:45:49,430 --> 00:45:42,840 in 1134 00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:49,440 Christianity and I'll stick to the 1135 00:45:54,770 --> 00:45:51,570 United States here for an example you 1136 00:45:57,830 --> 00:45:54,780 cannot get elected to office in the 1137 00:45:59,600 --> 00:45:57,840 United States without making a faith 1138 00:46:01,580 --> 00:45:59,610 statement and if we're talking about a 1139 00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:01,590 national election that is a Christian 1140 00:46:05,990 --> 00:46:03,930 faith statement so you can't so you wind 1141 00:46:08,450 --> 00:46:06,000 up with Barack Obama I don't think 1142 00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:08,460 anyone believes is this kind of 1143 00:46:13,130 --> 00:46:10,650 conservative Christian having to make 1144 00:46:14,780 --> 00:46:13,140 these faith statements about Jesus and 1145 00:46:16,580 --> 00:46:14,790 all the rest of this stuff that just I 1146 00:46:18,350 --> 00:46:16,590 can't say I don't know the guys heart 1147 00:46:20,810 --> 00:46:18,360 but I just don't believe for a second is 1148 00:46:23,930 --> 00:46:20,820 true it's like George Bush who was that 1149 00:46:26,330 --> 00:46:23,940 was his that was his leading salvo in 1150 00:46:28,130 --> 00:46:26,340 terms of who he was I mean he doesn't go 1151 00:46:31,250 --> 00:46:28,140 to church anymore people have followed 1152 00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:31,260 it's it's a sham I who's going to point 1153 00:46:35,630 --> 00:46:33,930 that out I think there's a huge problem 1154 00:46:37,580 --> 00:46:35,640 there and the atheists have pointed that 1155 00:46:41,300 --> 00:46:37,590 out I think they've also pointed out 1156 00:46:44,570 --> 00:46:41,310 just the problems with the historical 1157 00:46:47,690 --> 00:46:44,580 account of Christianity it just doesn't 1158 00:46:50,570 --> 00:46:47,700 hold up very well at all Christian 1159 00:46:53,060 --> 00:46:50,580 apologetics is is is a complete failure 1160 00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:53,070 when you talk to the really smart people 1161 00:46:56,690 --> 00:46:54,810 that have pulled it apart and I sent you 1162 00:46:58,760 --> 00:46:56,700 a couple links that we won't get into 1163 00:47:01,160 --> 00:46:58,770 but you know Joseph at well i think is 1164 00:47:03,590 --> 00:47:01,170 done an outstanding job of just kind of 1165 00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:03,600 pointing out the obvious in glaring 1166 00:47:10,010 --> 00:47:07,890 problems i think acharya s DM Murdoch is 1167 00:47:11,990 --> 00:47:10,020 another person I've had on some people 1168 00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:12,000 have challenged some of the bits and 1169 00:47:17,270 --> 00:47:14,610 pieces of her work but the whole of it 1170 00:47:20,810 --> 00:47:17,280 the main pieces remain intact there's 1171 00:47:24,220 --> 00:47:20,820 some huge problems with early Christian 1172 00:47:27,620 --> 00:47:24,230 history in terms of the the way that uh 1173 00:47:30,530 --> 00:47:27,630 apologists spin that into our modern-day 1174 00:47:33,140 --> 00:47:30,540 Christianity who's going to stand up and 1175 00:47:36,590 --> 00:47:33,150 bring that kind of history to the fore 1176 00:47:38,690 --> 00:47:36,600 again i think that the atheists are the 1177 00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:38,700 only people who are really doing that 1178 00:47:44,540 --> 00:47:42,210 and i think it's also you know we talked 1179 00:47:47,720 --> 00:47:44,550 about a little bit about religious 1180 00:47:50,030 --> 00:47:47,730 freedom and i think with that goes with 1181 00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:50,040 the ability or the freedom to be a 1182 00:47:55,130 --> 00:47:52,890 non-believer and again in the united 1183 00:47:56,450 --> 00:47:55,140 states that's a very difficult process 1184 00:47:58,940 --> 00:47:56,460 to people for a lot 1185 00:48:02,480 --> 00:47:58,950 people to go through it's it's a hugely 1186 00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:02,490 challenging process for them to to break 1187 00:48:05,599 --> 00:48:04,050 away from that tradition and come out 1188 00:48:07,940 --> 00:48:05,609 and say you know I'm leaving that behind 1189 00:48:10,730 --> 00:48:07,950 and and I think they can provide 1190 00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:10,740 atheists that is can provide support for 1191 00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:12,690 those people and even if I don't think 1192 00:48:17,720 --> 00:48:14,130 that's ultimately where people need to 1193 00:48:20,270 --> 00:48:17,730 wind up i do want to support that people 1194 00:48:22,250 --> 00:48:20,280 need to have that freedom to break away 1195 00:48:24,770 --> 00:48:22,260 from their religious traditions and he 1196 00:48:26,870 --> 00:48:24,780 thought that ya know I i can see that i 1197 00:48:30,230 --> 00:48:26,880 think this is partly a kind of cultural 1198 00:48:31,339 --> 00:48:30,240 issue isn't it that you know we touch at 1199 00:48:32,870 --> 00:48:31,349 the beginning about how American 1200 00:48:34,430 --> 00:48:32,880 Christianity is in some ways quite 1201 00:48:36,710 --> 00:48:34,440 different from British Christianity and 1202 00:48:39,710 --> 00:48:36,720 and so and you know we don't have a 1203 00:48:42,650 --> 00:48:39,720 problem about you know a prime minister 1204 00:48:43,520 --> 00:48:42,660 has to say they're a christian but we do 1205 00:48:46,099 --> 00:48:43,530 have a proper i guess with the 1206 00:48:47,570 --> 00:48:46,109 established church and so need some 1207 00:48:49,849 --> 00:48:47,580 atheist groups of champions 1208 00:48:51,260 --> 00:48:49,859 disestablishment and i'm personally i 1209 00:48:53,359 --> 00:48:51,270 think they you know if the church 1210 00:48:54,829 --> 00:48:53,369 disestablished in some way or other they 1211 00:48:57,079 --> 00:48:54,839 the show should be doing yourself a 1212 00:48:59,000 --> 00:48:57,089 favor and it will be free of the past 1213 00:49:01,040 --> 00:48:59,010 and be able to step into a different 1214 00:49:02,630 --> 00:49:01,050 kind of future it's not a 1215 00:49:04,430 --> 00:49:02,640 straightforward question but i think 1216 00:49:05,420 --> 00:49:04,440 that there's something in that so I see 1217 00:49:07,910 --> 00:49:05,430 what you mean about those particular 1218 00:49:10,609 --> 00:49:07,920 issues but i guess the broader issue for 1219 00:49:12,770 --> 00:49:10,619 me and is where is this criticism coming 1220 00:49:16,070 --> 00:49:12,780 from and I think there is a real problem 1221 00:49:17,690 --> 00:49:16,080 in certain atheist groups when they do 1222 00:49:20,510 --> 00:49:17,700 in a way to find themselves by what 1223 00:49:23,150 --> 00:49:20,520 they're against and if you do that all 1224 00:49:26,060 --> 00:49:23,160 the way down and then you become like 1225 00:49:28,520 --> 00:49:26,070 the thing is you solos so true you 1226 00:49:31,310 --> 00:49:28,530 become like your enemy you know and so a 1227 00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:31,320 kind of quick and atheistic humanism 1228 00:49:35,839 --> 00:49:34,290 that is based on something positive 1229 00:49:38,300 --> 00:49:35,849 about human nature that's tired of 1230 00:49:40,130 --> 00:49:38,310 trying to project that alongside you 1231 00:49:42,980 --> 00:49:40,140 know the critique and i think is much 1232 00:49:47,180 --> 00:49:42,990 more attractive to me i agree and of 1233 00:49:51,710 --> 00:49:47,190 course that that's the big problem with 1234 00:49:55,130 --> 00:49:51,720 atheism is they do they cannot in their 1235 00:49:58,820 --> 00:49:55,140 Creed acknowledge any real human 1236 00:50:01,250 --> 00:49:58,830 qualities to preserve promote to to love 1237 00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:01,260 to you know they just can't it because 1238 00:50:06,290 --> 00:50:03,690 we're biological robots in a meaningless 1239 00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:06,300 universe by definition a priori 1240 00:50:10,130 --> 00:50:09,810 assumption and it poisons intellectually 1241 00:50:12,799 --> 00:50:10,140 it 1242 00:50:14,509 --> 00:50:12,809 poisons all their arguments well I tell 1243 00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:14,519 you what mark we're running out of time 1244 00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:15,930 in a little bit of time we have left 1245 00:50:20,900 --> 00:50:18,690 tell folks a little bit more about some 1246 00:50:22,579 --> 00:50:20,910 of your work some of your writings and 1247 00:50:24,680 --> 00:50:22,589 particularly what what you're working on 1248 00:50:27,019 --> 00:50:24,690 now what people can expect to see from 1249 00:50:29,180 --> 00:50:27,029 you in the near future yeah well thanks 1250 00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:29,190 for the opportunity so alongside 1251 00:50:34,299 --> 00:50:32,010 psychotherapy which in a way it's very 1252 00:50:36,380 --> 00:50:34,309 important to me because it's like 1253 00:50:38,210 --> 00:50:36,390 engaging with people at the cutting edge 1254 00:50:40,579 --> 00:50:38,220 of life you might say and so there's a 1255 00:50:42,710 --> 00:50:40,589 kind of vitality and that that I think 1256 00:50:44,299 --> 00:50:42,720 is you know very enriching as well as 1257 00:50:48,589 --> 00:50:44,309 very difficult and often quite a 1258 00:50:51,170 --> 00:50:48,599 struggle but our continued doing and the 1259 00:50:52,730 --> 00:50:51,180 writing and the teaching which I do at a 1260 00:50:54,620 --> 00:50:52,740 couple of projects here in London one 1261 00:50:57,380 --> 00:50:54,630 called the school of life and other will 1262 00:50:59,230 --> 00:50:57,390 call the idler Academy carrying on 1263 00:51:02,809 --> 00:50:59,240 talking with Rupert and other people 1264 00:51:05,690 --> 00:51:02,819 trying to in a way I think develop the 1265 00:51:09,109 --> 00:51:05,700 sort of vocabulary and the imaginative 1266 00:51:10,910 --> 00:51:09,119 landscape you might say that hopefully 1267 00:51:12,529 --> 00:51:10,920 is useful not just for us but also for 1268 00:51:14,809 --> 00:51:12,539 other people as they try to explore 1269 00:51:17,720 --> 00:51:14,819 these things and with this kind of sense 1270 00:51:20,329 --> 00:51:17,730 of discernment as well as expansion 1271 00:51:22,430 --> 00:51:20,339 expansion of experience in life and so 1272 00:51:25,130 --> 00:51:22,440 you know I've done this kind of mix of 1273 00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:25,140 writing and reading and but also the 1274 00:51:29,599 --> 00:51:26,970 therapeutic work and the more personal 1275 00:51:31,220 --> 00:51:29,609 work for quite a long time and I find it 1276 00:51:34,069 --> 00:51:31,230 a very rich kind of mix of things 1277 00:51:36,109 --> 00:51:34,079 actually keep things alive for me well 1278 00:51:38,390 --> 00:51:36,119 it really is wonderful work and I do 1279 00:51:39,980 --> 00:51:38,400 hope people check out the podcast that 1280 00:51:41,920 --> 00:51:39,990 you're doing and all your other stuff 1281 00:51:45,799 --> 00:51:41,930 that they can find through your website 1282 00:51:48,620 --> 00:51:45,809 nicely named mark Fernand calm easy to 1283 00:51:50,569 --> 00:51:48,630 find it's been great getting to know you 1284 00:51:52,519 --> 00:51:50,579 mark I hope that in one way or another 1285 00:51:55,009 --> 00:51:52,529 we find a way to continue this dialogue 1286 00:51:57,319 --> 00:51:55,019 because I've really enjoyed it thanks so 1287 00:51:58,579 --> 00:51:57,329 much for joining me on skeptic oh yeah 1288 00:52:00,470 --> 00:51:58,589 well thank you very much and I very much 1289 00:52:03,200 --> 00:52:00,480 appreciate what skeptic oh does too so 1290 00:52:05,120 --> 00:52:03,210 please also keep up the good work thanks 1291 00:52:06,890 --> 00:52:05,130 again to mark Vernon for joining me 1292 00:52:09,109 --> 00:52:06,900 today on skeptic oh I'd offer one 1293 00:52:11,089 --> 00:52:09,119 question to tee up from this interview 1294 00:52:14,720 --> 00:52:11,099 it's the question in the title of the 1295 00:52:17,599 --> 00:52:14,730 show is Christianity worth saving the 1296 00:52:20,329 --> 00:52:17,609 real question I think I'm asking is how 1297 00:52:23,490 --> 00:52:20,339 do we move forward in light of this 1298 00:52:26,250 --> 00:52:23,500 cultural tradition that we have 1299 00:52:28,530 --> 00:52:26,260 I think we need to be super hard on 1300 00:52:32,120 --> 00:52:28,540 Christianity and demand that it delivers 1301 00:52:34,410 --> 00:52:32,130 the goods scientifically historic 1302 00:52:36,630 --> 00:52:34,420 sociologically in terms of really 1303 00:52:39,090 --> 00:52:36,640 dealing with what it's meant to us I 1304 00:52:41,880 --> 00:52:39,100 think we should really hold it to the 1305 00:52:44,250 --> 00:52:41,890 test and when we do that with people who 1306 00:52:47,160 --> 00:52:44,260 are really open and honest and bright 1307 00:52:49,710 --> 00:52:47,170 like Mark Vernon there is a path forward 1308 00:52:52,320 --> 00:52:49,720 but I would suggest that the Christians 1309 00:52:54,960 --> 00:52:52,330 who are not willing to fully deal with 1310 00:52:57,270 --> 00:52:54,970 all that their tradition has meant in 1311 00:53:00,480 --> 00:52:57,280 all the ways that their tradition is 1312 00:53:03,720 --> 00:53:00,490 provably demonstrably out of sync with 1313 00:53:05,070 --> 00:53:03,730 science with history well I think those 1314 00:53:07,590 --> 00:53:05,080 people are just going to be left in the 1315 00:53:09,720 --> 00:53:07,600 dust so let me know what you think of 1316 00:53:14,430 --> 00:53:09,730 course the place to do it is through the 1317 00:53:16,710 --> 00:53:14,440 skeptic Oh website at ske pti k Oh calm 1318 00:53:18,630 --> 00:53:16,720 you can leave a comment there jump over 1319 00:53:20,790 --> 00:53:18,640 to the skeptical form and enter the 1320 00:53:23,490 --> 00:53:20,800 conversation there or connect with me on 1321 00:53:25,200 --> 00:53:23,500 Facebook Twitter send me an email I have 1322 00:53:27,330 --> 00:53:25,210 a number of interesting shows coming up 1323 00:53:29,820 --> 00:53:27,340 including an interesting interview on 1324 00:53:32,130 --> 00:53:29,830 near-death experience science and where 1325 00:53:35,130 --> 00:53:32,140 that may be heading I have an interview 1326 00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:35,140 with a very interesting filmmaker who 1327 00:53:39,780 --> 00:53:37,210 has a new film coming out that I think 1328 00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:39,790 you'll really enjoy on science and 1329 00:53:44,580 --> 00:53:42,490 spirituality and a couple other good 1330 00:53:46,350 --> 00:53:44,590 ones in the hopper as well so that's 1331 00:53:48,810 --> 00:53:46,360 going to do it for this episode of 1332 00:53:50,730 --> 00:53:48,820 skeptic oh I hope you enjoyed it and if 1333 00:53:52,800 --> 00:53:50,740 you did enjoy it I hope you tell your 1334 00:53:55,410 --> 00:53:52,810 friends about it blog about it and 1335 00:53:58,980 --> 00:53:55,420 otherwise spread the word about skeptic